Easier Downloads

[boomer12k]

Guys, The new site is great. But there is too much in clicking to go to another page to do the DL.
If it was a game I knew I did not have, it would be more convenient to have a DL button by the game on the list page. This would be a big help as I am finding MANY games. Maybe an S for SABID, and an N for Nostalgia??
Also, a search based on the genre list in gamebase instead of having to type in the genre, or links (like the game links) to a specific genre.
Also, I would like to see more utility, music, graphix, and sound programs. Also Cartridge versions, Manuals And Maps. Also, an English link like you do for German, French, Italian, and Spanish. I don't need those versions, and hate to wade through them.
Don't take this a criticism. These are just suggestions for making things easier, and adding more interesting stuff to the site.
Thanks for having a great site in the first place. It is really a great start.
Boomer

[graveyardjohn]

Guys, The new site is great.

Hey, thanks!

But there is too much in clicking to go to another page to do the DL.
If it was a game I knew I did not have, it would be more convenient to have a DL button by the game on the list page. This would be a big help as I am finding MANY games. Maybe an S for SABID, and an N for Nostalgia??

This is something used to try to stop mass leeching of games. The (kindly hosted) sites with the games on have been experiencing flat-out usage of their bandwidth and have had to scale back the number of simultaneous downloaders. The easier it is to get more games at once, the harder it will be to get any of them at all!

If you want to get lots and lots of the games, I'd recommend getting the full ISO off emule, newsgroups, or hanging around in the C64 forums for someone who may start a burning service.

Also, a search based on the genre list in gamebase instead of having to type in the genre, or links (like the game links) to a specific genre.Also, an English link like you do for German, French, Italian, and Spanish. I don't need those versions, and hate to wade through them.

Have you tried the Advanced Search ?

Also, I would like to see more utility, music, graphix, and sound programs. Also Cartridge versions, Manuals And Maps.

Currently, gamebase has all been about games, in the best format we can find. I am sure that extras will come in the future. Perhaps you may like to start work on Utilitybase?

Don't take this a criticism. These are just suggestions for making things easier, and adding more interesting stuff to the site.
Thanks for having a great site in the first place. It is really a great start.

Thanks - hope you enjoy returning again and again!

John

[Michael Plate]

Don't take this a criticism. These are just suggestions for making things easier, and adding more interesting stuff to the site.
Thanks for having a great site in the first place. It is really a great start.
Boomer

Even if I don't take it as criticism comments like this really make me angry!

Have you ever thought about how much time it took to complete everything as it is now? I guess you don't even have a small clue!
We delayed the release for more than a year because there was so much work to do and you ask for more features????? We haven't even had the time to add all games from our queue, not to speak of the thousands of covers, docs, etc.

Also why should we change the way you can download the games? Having all DL files in a list would heavily increase the number of leechers and reduce the accessibility of the hosts due to the high traffic.

Again, if somebody needs more comfort for downloading the games he is welcome to rent us another server from HIS money, do the programming by himself, include the requested new features...

[raqman]

this is a free piece of Genius done for no other reason than for the C64 community.
I am trying to do my little bit to host some stuff, but can you imagine a 1000 pepole downloading 500mb of stuff, that would bring down a network.
The servers for single games are more a compliment to the main site for everyone (people with dial up modems aswell) that can download specific games at high speed, if you want the whole collection, then emule is the best way.

[boomer12k]

I am sorry some of you took my opinion the wrong way.
I certainly appreciate all the hard, long hours of work everybody did to make this a great site over the past few years.
I have been coming here for quite awhile and I have always appreciated what I have gotten. I have even contributed a very small amount.
I only know things from a Downloader's point of view. So I pointed out somethings to make it easier. I don't know about server loads and all that.
I can see and understand your reasons for doing things the way you have choosen to do them. But I have also seen MANY other sites (including large Amiga and PC sites) with the features I described, and they don't seem to suffer any. So, I hope in the future as your time allows new things will be added. After all we should remember that our beloved C64 was not just a game machine. It has 3 voice sound generators and graphics capabilities. And remember what happend to Commodore Zone. No updates, and their gone. They did not have an expanding vision. I would really hate to see that happen here.
So be well and happy.
Boomer

[Eloquence]

I only know things from a Downloader's point of view. So I pointed out somethings to make it easier.

Well, I'm sorry but the pure downloader's view isn't really important to the project at all. By all means, the stuff is available, and everyone should be given equal opportunity to take a look at it. Yet that's just why (or at least one of the reasons) it shouldn't be dead easy to leech the entire thing from HTTP. What's the problem with getting the ISO off eMule?

But I have also seen MANY other sites (including large Amiga and PC sites) with the features I described, and they don't seem to suffer any.

Well, they're not Gamebase, so whatever solutions they have (whether it's more money for proper servers, or people with major servers who provide them space and bandwith, or whatever), it doesn't apply to gb64 at all. Donate to the project, and they might stand a better chance of getting another solution in the future... although I guess they will prioritize other stuff before bandwidth (and they should). Another point is that Gamebase itself has nothing to do with the games, they're hosted by external partners.

So, I hope in the future as your time allows new things will be added.

Is that a joke? New stuff is getting and will be getting added all the time (info, taps, better versions, more games, more extras, ...) and it's not like development has stopped, either.

After all we should remember that our beloved C64 was not just a game machine. It has 3 voice sound generators and graphics capabilities.

Yes...? This is the Gamebase project, though, hardly the right project for music or drawing programs (if that's what you're suggesting). Spin-off projects will likely emerge in due time, feel free to start one yourself!

And remember what happend to Commodore Zone. No updates, and their gone. They did not have an expanding vision. I would really hate to see that happen here.

Commodore Zone wasn't exactly the same thing (to put it mildly). Nor was it a team effort, as far as I know. The GB team doesn't quite have a lack of new stuff to implement or add in their to do queues...

[boomer12k]

Eloquence,
Yes it is Gamebase, and maybe a DLer's point of view is not needed for the project. However, if it is supposed to be "GAMEBASE" and GAMES only by inference, how come there are educational NON-GAMES like Sky Travel? An Astronomy program. Not a game at all. Tarot, entertaining, but not a game. Dream House, design a house, but not a game. Fidgits Music School, teaches music, a MUSIC PROGRAM, not a game. The "all time great" Flight Simulator II is entertaining and fun, but is not a GAME (other than the WWI scenario.) Hockey is a game. There are many examples of that here with educational programs that are NOT GAMES. Games have SCORES. And you try to win a game (like chess) or reach a higher score (like Space Invaders). Why are these programs then included?
Because the concept of gamebase was not just games but a database of C64 programs, maybe with an emphasis on games, but not exclusively to games. Therefore, I logically submit your analysis is faulty. And therefore, since this site is already presenting NON-games, it is logical to extrapilate in the future a section for other non-game genre. So, I meerly suggested it.
I am not against games, as that is one of the reasons I am here. I am just expressing my desire for other things as well. (I especially need DOX and MAPs, etc..) As Gamebase64.com also "deals" in RARE PROGRAMS. Also, if this site is only game oriented, why are there so many SID files to listen to? I mean that is music, not games. They are here because people like them, want them, are looking for them, and COLLECT them.
I don't. But other's do...
So, since there is an Educational - genre, why not an Educational - Music, or an Educational - Graphics genre? Even a Utilities Genre. Seems perfectly reasonable and a logical progression to me. I think it would make a great site, even greater and a more COMPLETE C64 collection.
So I challange you to expand your vision....
Boomer12k

[Eloquence]

Challenge accepted! But I will still say that Gamebase is a gameware project, and that it's your definition of games that is limited. Educational programs are in most cases for kids, and are meant to be played with while learning something at the same time. That's a game to me, not necessarily with a scoreboard or a way to "win". So the answer to your first question (IMHO of course) is, they're included because they are meant to be played (or played WITH, a subtle but crucial inclusion in my opinion), and as such are games. Not a word processor or a disk copy program, meant to do some specific work, and Fidgit's, to take that example, is not a "pure" music tracker either (like DMC or Future Composer, for instance), but a program meant to be played with by kids. If utilities have a place somewhere, it's in the Utilitybase 64, which no-one has started yet, but which may come, by all means. I simply disagree with your notion that this is a logical progression of the Gamebase project (without spinning off and spawning something else).

The SIDs are included because the HVSC collection is there, and pretty easy to integrate. (I guess.) If you send the Gamebase team a demo SID that isn't in HVSC, they will likely tell you it's the wrong place. If you rip a SID tune from a game that isn't in HVSC, they will likely accept it (and it will probably be included in the next HVSC version too). So the SIDs from games are the ones that most naturally belong to this project.

I do, of course, agree that a COMPLETE c64 collection is an ultimate goal that would be very cool to have (although impossible ). But it is my belief that this should come from the integration of similar projects for other areas, not from the expansion of Gamebase to an increasingly inappropriately named blob of everything...

It's interesting, by the way, how you claim to express your desire for "other things [than games]", yet what you are really interested in are docs, maps, etc., which is clearly game-related stuff that definitely is meant to be included in gamebase.

All of this IMHO, and it doesn't necessarily reflect the opinion of any members of the GB team

[Magnate]

Because the concept of gamebase was not just games but a database of C64 programs, maybe with an emphasis on games, but not exclusively to games.

Erm, where did you get this information from? I'm afraid you're not the right person to say what's the concept of The Gamebase Collection and what's not.

[Matt Larsen]

Boomer,

It has taken an entire team of 12 people (the number has varied over the years) five years just to make the games collection (and we have over 700 games waited to be added and that is just at the present moment)!

You act like it is no big deal and we just threw this project together overnight, and 15,800 database entries just magically appeared by themselves. And then you can't understand why there isn't a utility database, and music database, and whatever else....

Why don't you get off your arse and start your own utility project? I have a feeling you would be sick of it by the time you added 20 entries, cleaned the utility program images and made sure they were reliable, added all the appropriate database info., etc. So why don't you do 20 or a couple hundred entries , and then maybe it will put it in perspective how long it takes to do over 15,000 entries.

There is nothing more frustrating than to have someone criticize the team after they have given many years of their life and every moment of their free time towards this project. And we did it all asking nothing in return....

We are not satisfied with our GAMES collection yet, so why would we move on to other areas? (READ THIS AS MEANING THAT GAMEBASE CONSUMES ALL OUR TIME, AND WE DON'T HAVE THE TIME FOR ANOTHER PROJECT!)

By the way some entries in gamebase may be in a gray area in regards to whether it is a game or not. BUT in the sense that there are games, utilities, graphics programs, etc. we thought that the program best represented a GAME, which was why it was included. If you do not like some of the entries please feel free to remove them from your own personal copy of gamebase.

Eloquence and Magnate thank you for your posts.... Much appreciated!

Cheers,

Matt Larsen
Gamebase 64 Team

[raqman]

Sounds like Boomer wants a refund.......
Oh, he did not pay for this, so no refund due.

I cannot believe once again anyway can say comments like this for "Freeware", and even if someone pays, it is only by "donation".

[boomer12k]

To Magnate,
I stand corrected. The stated purpose of Gamebase64 is to document all C64 Gameware before it is too late. However, as I mentioned above, not all programs are games. Therefore, they are already documenting other genre. Why not a few others?

To Matt Larson,
I said above, that I appreciate all the hard work and long hours you guys have put into Gamebase64. I have 3033 games in my own database. 1611 are blast, and about 200 are Dotson. So about 1222 are HAND ENTERED PERSONALLY BY ME! TOOK ME MONTHS! Off and on. And like you guys, I am not done either. My 64 collection is comprised of 5261 files. I know yours is bigger but I don't need to play every BoulderDash version ever made! So I have done alot of data entry already over the past 3 or 4 years myself, no help from a team. So you can't tell me I don't know what you've been going through, and that I don't appreciate it. This does not take into account the 8138 AMIGA ADF collection I have to wade through and sort. Nor my Gameboy collection. 700+ mbs. on 2 CD's! At least my MAME collection was automatically entered into the MAME frontend as it automatically checks for ROMS. God, I wish Gamebase64 did that. Don't you??? Not to mention my PC program collections!!! So I totally respect what you have all done. TOTALLY. You took my comments and opinions, the wrong way... So if you guys want to STAY totally game based as a concept and purpose that is ok with me. However, I have the right to freely comment, and give opinion and feedback, (whether possitive or negative) and even make requests. So I hope in the furture the site might add some diffent catagories. I simply ASK and made some suggestions... And I NEVER criticized the team. And if you don't have any time for any other projects? Why not put together a team to do them? I have 250 mb of Docs I can contribute. Most are for games! Interested? And a few GOOD utilies to catalog, move, rename, and sort .d64 images would be a BIG benefit to your members. Without the need for a UTILITYBASE 64. Just in another page of the site. Just some of the good UTs. That's no big deal.
It is certainly nothing to get upset about as a suggestion.
I never said I did not LIKE any of the entries. As for the "grey area", there is no way Sky Travel "best represents" a game. Educational, Fun to play with Astronomy Program. But it has no gaming aspects. So why not a Educational-Music, or Educational-Graphic genre? No big deal. My graphic programs number only about 8 to 10 programs. Music is about 10! Really hard to do!!! Utilities is also around 10. It is not like I am asking for EVERY single program ever made. Nor am I asking you to enter 1000's. You do not even have to include them IN Gamebase64 as a project. Just have them available in another section of the site. LIKE THIS FORUM is another section. I am sure it was not all that much trouble to put in. And you certainly don't have to put me down for suggesting it. I am a 50 year old man, not some 14 year old punk. I started back in 77 or 78 with an 8k Pet 2001, got a c64 in 85, and an Amiga 500 in late 88. So I am a "dyed in the wool" Commodore man. So I am a serious collector. Games primarily, but my interest does not end there. That is why I suggested the other stuff. There's no harm in that. There is no put down in meerly suggesting something someone would like to see added. So I had no intention of offending anyone.
To eloquence,
Ok. So it is a Gameware Project. That does not mean they can not include some other beneficial and complementary things "on the side" in another section of the site. One such benefitial thing would be some utilities. Catalog, move, rename, sort, alphabetize, etc... Beneficial for your GAME collection. Kind of like "a burger...with fries". If you read the above, you can see that it would not be that big of a project. And does not need to be called Utilitybase 64, Musicbase 64 or Graphixbase 64. That would be impractical since the frontend plays any image file and does not care what it is, I put my UTs in the database along with my Music files, and Graphix programs. So they are easy to get to. As well as my 3033 GAMES. They don't have to be included in the GAMEBASE, just another site page. I still need some of the old rare programs. No one has them. These people have access to a worldwide network of contacts. That is why I come to a site. To get stuff I nomally can't any other way. Like the Jetan - Martian Chess. I never would have known, if not for coming here that it even existed. I collect chess programs.
According to you a game not only has scores, or the purpose to win, but also includes "fun" and "playing with" type of entertainment. I have fun and like to play with music and graphic programs. I get entertainment out of them. Some Uts are fun to play around with too. Some one might just get the biggest fun playing with a "pure" music tracker. By your definition "a game". Since we ALL AGREE that the C64 is a FUN to Play machine. They are all Games by your definition. Of course I have had games that are not fun, but frustrating to play. But they were games. Tarot is entertaining and fun to play with, but forgive me, it is not a game. Yet it is here. If they are including programs for SHEER ENJOYMENT VALUE, then there are other programs that are just as VALID. Music Shop by Broderbund. Fun to play with, entertainment. Teaches music. Educational. A game by your definition. And yet not included as a game. So your definition is not consistant.
So, I am sorry for our difference in opinion of what constitutes a game.
As for my interest in Docs and maps, and other things. That is my point in suggesting a Docs section. As they are game related, and needed to play the game. Some Docs are on the game disk. Some are not. Keyboard commands for Gunship for example. The Gamebase frontend has a DOC link. If as stated they are documenting the c64 gameware... where is the documentation? I am not suggesting they collect BOX COVERS.
SO I hope in the future they make a section. They don't have to be included in the CD version or the Gamebase Database at all. Otherwise no one would need to come to the site. And that is also what the site owners want. People to come here and get things.
I just ask for them to think about it. I am not demanding it. I am not putting them down for not having it. They could keep it totally ARCADE - shoot'em GAMES for all I care. But I might suggest they add Arcade - beat'em's. I realize they are going to continue to do whatever they want with the site regardless of how I or anybody else feels. But I should have the right to mention and suggest things without being jumped on, right?
So that just about covers it this time, I look forward to your responses.
Boomer12k

[Fractalus!]

Boomer, perhaps something like the TOSEC project is more up your alley:

http://tosec.org/

They have databases (with renaming tool with a nice windows frontend) of C64 games, utilities, magazines, educational software, demos you name it.

And if that still doesn't satisfy you, why don't you start your own project? "Boomer's Gamebase c64 docs" project. Look at how the Amiga "Caps" guys did it: http://www.caps-project.org/ Pretty classy if you ask me.

[boomer12k]

I never said I was dissatisfied with anything. I just suggested some additions.
Thank you for your comments and opinions.
Boomer

[Eloquence]

OK, just a few comments... right.

However, as I mentioned above, not all programs are games. Therefore, they are already documenting other genre. Why not a few others?

If you read Matt's post, you see that they are documenting games only so far, and what you describe as "other genre[s]" in fact have been classified as games. That's why they're in Gamebase!

At least my MAME collection was automatically entered into the MAME frontend as it automatically checks for ROMS. God, I wish Gamebase64 did that. Don't you???

Well, I guesstimate the number of C64 cartridge ROMs to be maybe around 500 (Mayhem can probably give a better estimate), and most people have probably less than a fifth of that many ROMs anyway, so that isn't really a required functionality.

No big deal. My graphic programs number only about 8 to 10 programs. Music is about 10! Really hard to do!!! Utilities is also around 10. It is not like I am asking for EVERY single program ever made. Nor am I asking you to enter 1000's. You do not even have to include them IN Gamebase64 as a project. Just have them available in another section of the site.

Er, what would be the point of that? Why would the Gamebase team design a separate page for 25 or 30 of YOUR personal music/graphics/whatever programs?

I am a 50 year old man, not some 14 year old punk.

Interesting, I certainly had the impression you were far younger than me... and I'm only 25. I mean, I don't know any other 50-year-olds who write "graphix"...

Ok. So it is a Gameware Project. That does not mean they can not include some other beneficial and complementary things "on the side" in another section of the site.

Two things. One, it was really hard (impossible?) to discern from your first couple of posts that you didn't want this stuff entered into Gamebase, but just added as a separate page to the website. Two, sure they can include "beneficial and complementary" things, which they already do to a certain extent (classic game sounds, Quick!64, ...), and I'm sure they will add more in the future. However, what you said in your first post is "I would like to see more utility, music, graphix, and sound programs". That is hard to take any other way than a request for the team to shift their focus from games to other stuff and add it to the database. That is impossible at this point, and the same team likely won't do it (since they're a Gamebase team, remember? ). So the challenge remains: if you want to see a collection of utilities, start it yourself. I'm sure the team will help you with some helpful contacts to get you started (since you're so eager to leech off their "worldwide network of contacts").

One such benefitial thing would be some utilities. Catalog, move, rename, sort, alphabetize, etc... Beneficial for your GAME collection. Kind of like "a burger...with fries".

Do you mean PC programs for cataloging .d64 (or whatever) images? That's not what you have been saying all along. Or do you mean C64 programs for cataloging your collection? Hardly beneficial when you have the Gamebase...

I still need some of the old rare programs. No one has them. These people have access to a worldwide network of contacts. That is why I come to a site. To get stuff I nomally can't any other way.

I'm not sure how to tell you this, but maybe you should reconsider your reasons for coming to this site. Then your suggestions might be taken up in a different way.

Besides, you are speaking with two very different things in mind here. On one side, you say that what you want is only your (very!) small collection of utility programs to be uploaded to another site page for the benefit of others. On the other, you imply (like in the quoted paragraph) that the gamebase team should use their contacts to spawn a whole new project of getting the "old rare programs" that you look for... What is it you really want?

Like the Jetan - Martian Chess. I never would have known, if not for coming here that it even existed. I collect chess programs.

Great! This is just the place for finding rare games. But not for utilities...

According to you a game not only has scores, or the purpose to win, but also includes "fun" and "playing with" type of entertainment. I have fun and like to play with music and graphic programs. I get entertainment out of them. Some Uts are fun to play around with too. Some one might just get the biggest fun playing with a "pure" music tracker. By your definition "a game". Since we ALL AGREE that the C64 is a FUN to Play machine. They are all Games by your definition.

Come on. Can I say bullshit on this forum? What really annoys me is that you haven't even taken the time to read my definition. Let me quote myself for your benefit:

[...] they're included because they are meant to be played (or played WITH, a subtle but crucial inclusion in my opinion), and as such are games.

So no, my definition wasn't that if you find it fun to program in assembly, assemblers are games. My definition is if you write a program meant to teach assembly by playing with mnemonics, you can call it a game. I went on to state that these gray-area games also are meant for no specific task (like a word processor), and you try to tell me that I said a "pure" music tracker is a game. Please... Do I really need to lecture a man twice my age on this? A music tracker is meant for making music. Therefore, it's a utility program.

Of course I have had games that are not fun, but frustrating to play. But they were games.

Yes. They were meant to be played by their authors, and as such, they were (and are) games.

Tarot is entertaining and fun to play with, but forgive me, it is not a game.

Not by your definition. Obviously and evidently, the Gamebase team begs to differ. Get over it.

If they are including programs for SHEER ENJOYMENT VALUE, then there are other programs that are just as VALID. Music Shop by Broderbund. Fun to play with, entertainment. Teaches music. Educational. A game by your definition. And yet not included as a game. So your definition is not consistant.

Music Shop by Broderbund is a utility for creating music, not meant as a game at all. And that something falls to one side or the other of a border in a clearly gray area doesn't mean that definitions are inconsistent. For one thing, it isn't my definitions that have been used to include or exclude stuff in Gamebase (since I am not part of the team). And your definition (high score or "way to win") also excludes stuff that many people would consider games (Big Bird's Special Delivery, Kermit's Electronic Storymaker, ...). So of course no definition is perfect, but that discussion belongs elsewhere.

So, I am sorry for our difference in opinion of what constitutes a game.

Why? I believe fruitful dicussion can arise from difference in opinion.

As for my interest in Docs and maps, and other things. That is my point in suggesting a Docs section. As they are game related, and needed to play the game. Some Docs are on the game disk. Some are not. Keyboard commands for Gunship for example. The Gamebase frontend has a DOC link. If as stated they are documenting the c64 gameware... where is the documentation? I am not suggesting they collect BOX COVERS.

Have you seen the "extras" button in GB? In many cases, this is linked to documentation. Like I said, this is an element that is clearly meant to be included (but time has so far not allowed more than collecting nearly 16000 games, making screenshots of them all, linking everything, creating a frontend, ... As if that wasn't enough already.) It's coming, just have patience!

SO I hope in the future they make a section. They don't have to be included in the CD version or the Gamebase Database at all. Otherwise no one would need to come to the site. And that is also what the site owners want. People to come here and get things.

Well... let's call that part a necessary evil, shall we? It certainly isn't the only reason for coming to a site, but I guess you won't understand that.

I just ask for them to think about it. I am not demanding it. I am not putting them down for not having it.

I can assure you they have thought about it... the answer is given, though: this is not the right place (at least at this time) for utilities.

They could keep it totally ARCADE - shoot'em GAMES for all I care. But I might suggest they add Arcade - beat'em's.

Which would be a very valid suggestion UNLESS you came to a site called "Shoot'em'up 64" (which in fact exists! http://shoot.cjb.net/) and did a first post on their forum saying, "This site is great! But I would like to see more docs, maps, and beat'em'up games! Also, I would like to see more adventure games!" Can you see that this could be taken the wrong way?

I realize they are going to continue to do whatever they want with the site regardless of how I or anybody else feels. But I should have the right to mention and suggest things without being jumped on, right?

Well, that's the curse of Internet forums, isn't it? Maybe it's just a bit early (less than two weeks after the site launch) to start suggesting stuff just to improve personal convenience... Especially when you clearly haven't even familiarized yourself with the interface before making suggestions (that are already there).