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Atari 8 Bit Gamebase

Discuss any other databases that use the GameBase Frontend, whether in pre development, development or publically released.

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www.atarimania.com
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Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:36 am

Patch61 wrote:Hmmmm...... where do I start?
While English isn't my mother tongue, I still think it's pretty clear...
First of all, to claim that you own images and scans of items COPYRIGHTED BY OTHER PARTIES, is at best fallacious and at worst, piracy. While I greatly appreciate all the work Atarimania has done in the name of preservation, it just strikes me as odd that you claim rights over something that does not belong to you in the first place. Just because you scanned something that is copyrighted by somebody else does not mean you suddenly own the image or the rights to it.
Where did we claim ANY copyright? Why are you bringing up that notion? Nobody holds any copyright to anything for most GameBase projects and that's the very point: we don't want any trouble from copyright holders that may trace back our work. Have YOU been in touch with some of the authors or software houses? We have and we know this is just semi-legal.

At the very least, from a moral point of view and in our limited circle, you should respect the fact that we don't want to spread what we did, particularly the "fragile" stuff (VAPI images) or the scans. The cracked and widely available games, of course, are OK. Screenshots you can easily take yourselves to prove that I'm wrong when I say that you're just doing some "basic compilation work".
Secondly, to turn around and tell somebody else that they can't use the images that you don't own is just senseless. I do agree it would have been nice if he asked permission to make use of the scans from your site. That would have been a thoughtful acknowledgement of the efforts your team has made. However, you do make those images freely available to the public.
Which refrains people from politely asking?
Also, I do not agree that his use of them is any less valid than yours just because his use is more for entertainment (in whatever sense) and yours is for preservation. Everybody values things differently.
The difference is that we spent THOUSANDS of hours trying to do something the right way (we feel) and don't like the idea of fly-by-nighters (no offense but I can't find a better term) grabbing our work.
Perhaps instead of putting down his efforts, you could suggest ways to improve the perceived (in your eyes) quality of what he is trying to do. Especially given that you say you would support a 'quality' effort in that direction. Maybe what he has done can be steadily improved until it is of sufficient quality for your tastes.
As I wrote, we're open to discussion.

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sut
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Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:08 pm

This being said, if somebody WITH AN ATARI BACKGROUND wants to build a HIGH QUALITY GameBase-compatible database using our files, screenshots, pictures... according to our criteria and standards (which, we feel, are or would be a benefit to both casual users and collectors, not just the former) and following our own decisions, we are open to discussion.
I have a slight issue with this statement, just because someone doesn't have a Atari background doesn't mean they cannot come up with a quality Gamebase. You could have someone with an Atari background who knows zip about producing a Gamebase.
I suppose the ideal scenario is someone with an Atari background and a Gamebase background ?

Also what do you term as a quality Gamebase ? as you know Gamebase is now somewhat old, so are you talking GamebaseST quality or something that is perhaps unobtainable ? I wouldn't consider myself a Atari 7800/5200 expert or have a background on these machines but I like to think my Gamebases for those systems (although small) are of sufficent quality.

Although I don't wholly agree with you on alot of points, I understand your point of view and at least you have conducted a reasonable and sensible argument .
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Sun Aug 31, 2008 3:15 pm

Slightly dumbfounded here...

What I'm getting is a zest of 'elitist' coming thru, the Atarimania site itself is superb and a must visit because of the data there, a gamebase could never convey the Atari history in the same way as the site but you are telling people to delete screenshots??

I along with a notable set of fellow lovers archived a huge amount of what went into ANY database, I consider myself a fully paid up Atari expert, I technically sold Atari, I wrote for Atari, I programmed on Atari, I hacked on Atari, I got games published on Atari but I don't want to claim ownership of titles, reviews I did, utilities I wrote, I want those to go everywhere and to every Atarifan to enjoy.

Hell, for bragging rights I sold Archer his first Disk Drive....

I appreciate the work put in but we all have put work in...

I remember many years ago asking if I could please ftp the collection as it was then so I could compare it to mine and send the difference and I was told, 'No, we don't want you to do that' and 'we have all the files out there or somesuch'.

So I was left with the choice of individually downloading each item which I neither had the time nor the notion to do.

Look, with the attitude, that 'we work hard on this but you can't have it' all that will happen is that you will drive the whole thing underground and your work will still like every one else's get used and you won't be able to do a thing against it.

Why not just give permission for nigh on everything and work with the guy without trying to exert 'control' over it.

Better still, you do an Official Atarmainia Gamebase, you have the files, the love of Atari and it would also promote the site.
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Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:27 pm

sut wrote:I have a slight issue with this statement, just because someone doesn't have a Atari background doesn't mean they cannot come up with a quality Gamebase.
To me, a quality GameBase is a database where things make sense and are organized. The information has to be correct as well. As I said previously, it shouldn't be a mess. Our database is a work of precision and information (sorry for being pedantic again) and we don't want all this to be diluted in the current version of this GameBase. That's why i think you should know A LOT about such trivial things as the publishers, the file extensions...
You could have someone with an Atari background who knows zip about producing a Gamebase. I suppose the ideal scenario is someone with an Atari background and a Gamebase background ?
One of the problems I feel is that Mike just wants to go for the record, which is to have the highest number of games (correct me if I'm wrong). I also don't see any long-term project with that GameBase project.

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Sun Aug 31, 2008 6:02 pm

Paul,
Paul Irvine wrote:What I'm getting is a zest of 'elitist' coming thru, the Atarimania site itself is superb and a must visit because of the data there, a gamebase could never convey the Atari history in the same way as the site but you are telling people to delete screenshots??
I'll give you that one... OK, you can USE our screenshots AS LONG AS WE ARE PROPERLY CREDITED. I mean... A guy pops out of nowhere, doesn't even frequent our forums or AtariAge, uses a screenshot where "Atarimania" appears as the name of the player as well as numerous other things... Do you expect us to be happy? What I see is, like I wrote, some "really basic compilation work".

Yes, we probably are elitist. Elitist because, as I said, we at least expect something ORGANIZED if you are using a large number of our files. I honestly don't think this is asking too much...
I remember many years ago asking if I could please ftp the collection as it was then so I could compare it to mine and send the difference and I was told, 'No, we don't want you to do that'.
Our database is a work of patience and precision with a daily evolution. For one thing, FTP means that you'd have a disorganized mess with many important elements missing (check the additional comments or the different releases for the same game for instance).
'we have all the files out there or somesuch'.
Wrong, what we said was that we didn't need the files on the other Atari sites as they would be sorted and added on a regular basis. We do have a MIA list on the site and welcome contributions. What we need are undumped games.
Look, with the attitude, that 'we work hard on this but you can't have it' all that will happen is that you will drive the whole thing underground and your work will still like every one else's get used and you won't be able to do a thing against it.

Why not just give permission for nigh on everything and work with the guy without trying to exert 'control' over it.
No, we won't do that because we feel things are not heading in the right direction at the moment (I already expressed my views on this).
Better still, you do an Official Atarmainia Gamebase, you have the files, the love of Atari and it would also promote the site.
The problem is mostly time... If somebody is interested in constructing a GameBase for the Atari using our fields with full respect to our philosophy and attention to detail, the door is open...

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Paul Irvine
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Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:26 pm

Sorry Atarifrog,

I'm struggling to understand your infatuation with Atari, you seem to love it but you come across as wanting to be seen as the number one uber fan.

I love the site but I don't see the logic in the downloads, say a new user pops onto the site and gets the bug, he or she has to sift thru page after page to download a game. It's ok if you are just 'topping up' your personal database but to do it from scratch is just too time consuming. Other places offer a timely 7zipped collection as a single file.

That's why I asked you for the ftp option, to save you zipping a collection up.

Look, I've already said I love your site and really do appreciate the hard work gone into it but you are seeing something that is basically a frontend for an emulator as competition for the site. I know this is true as you would have refused the guy anyway.

If I want a spot of info I come to your site and not fire up a Gamebase, the gamebase basically provides direct play access to the games while the site is a myriad of treasures that could never ever fully be added to the Gamebase due to time constraints.

I love the gamebase so I can have a retro moment and maybe spot an old / new / forgotten game by it's screenshot. If there's any extra material like a walkthru, cheats, pictures then it's nice and welcome. And yes, I would imagine that the basis for the gamebase is to cram in as many games as possible (basically a natural idea for the project) but maybe one or two items in every hundred could be a bad dump or not clean but hell, for the average user that's not an issue.

I salute both peoples dedication on their projects and wish both parties continued success, why you won't share for a big thank you and site placement on the gamebase is odd, it goes against the whole object of being an Atari fan.

You do realise there's more of us than just you who have paid our dues over the years, C'mon on, join us just that little step further, we don't bite you know :)
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Patch61
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Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:51 pm

www.atarimania.com wrote:While English isn't my mother tongue, I still think it's pretty clear...
Despite a reasonable amount of intelligence, I fail to understand the reason for this declaration.
Where did we claim ANY copyright? Why are you bringing up that notion? Nobody holds any copyright to anything for most GameBase projects and that's the very point: we don't want any trouble from copyright holders that may trace back our work. Have YOU been in touch with some of the authors or software houses? We have and we know this is just semi-legal.
I didn't say you claimed copyright. I was pointing out that you seem to think people need permission to use images from your site when you do not have any copyrights at all to said images.
At the very least, from a moral point of view and in our limited circle, you should respect the fact that we don't want to spread what we did, particularly the "fragile" stuff (VAPI images) or the scans. The cracked and widely available games, of course, are OK. Screenshots you can easily take yourselves to prove that I'm wrong when I say that you're just doing some "basic compilation work".
I did say (and do believe) that you should have been asked before stuff was used from your site. I said nothing about the VAPI images (the 'images' I was referring to are the scans), which to me, is a creation by you. However, since you bring it up, it is still not your property since it is based on copyrighted property. Plus, as I said before, you have made this stuff freely available to the public and therefore rendered it public domain (at least as far as your contribution to it).

Which refrains people from politely asking?
I did mention that you should have been asked.
The difference is that we spent THOUSANDS of hours trying to do something the right way (we feel) and don't like the idea of fly-by-nighters (no offense but I can't find a better term) grabbing our work.
By the same token, the original developers spent thousands of hours creating the content you are taking freely. As far as 'trying to do something the right way' goes, who made YOU the final arbiter on what is 'right'? What this guy is doing is 'right' in my book... that is to say, he is making a large collection of classic games easily available to play. He is not encroaching on your site's purpose. He has a different purpose and thus, your way is no more 'right' than his.
As I wrote, we're open to discussion.
Actually, I believe you told him No. That is not very open at all.

Now, I really don't mean to disrespect you or your efforts. In fact I, and many other Atari fans, are greatly appreciative of your efforts to preserve a piece of our history and our fond memories. But I also appreciate the efforts of other people who create GameBase compilations to make it easier for me to check out all the old games.

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Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:58 pm

Here at GB64, the only thing we legally have any rights to, is the MS access database of all the Commodore 64 games we have found and collected data about. We control this because (a) we created it from scratch, so it is our own work, and (b) we don't want other people ripping it off and making websites similar to ours, and (c) we don't want to have the database forked.

Despite the fact that we have personally spent thousands of dollars collecting original disks and collecting old games - not to mention all the scans and the hours spent trying to organise 20,000 games over a period of 10 years -- we DON'T have any right to stop people downloading the games, OR our scans.
In fact, to the contrary - we WANT people to do this for the sake of preserving a very important part of our shared digital history.

Anyway, it just smacks of elitism for the Atariage people to go around thinking that they can restrict access to scans that weren't theirs to begin with. It's a bit rich.
Doing this work is a HOBBY for most of us, and the fact that a lot of people enjoy the results of our work is the reward.

Seriously, just LET IT GO!
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Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:06 pm

Paul,
I'm struggling to understand your infatuation with Atari, you seem to love it but you come across as wanting to be seen as the number one uber fan.
Come on, do you really believe what you just wrote?
I love the site but I don't see the logic in the downloads, say a new user pops onto the site and gets the bug, he or she has to sift thru page after page to download a game. It's ok if you are just 'topping up' your personal database but to do it from scratch is just too time consuming. Other places offer a timely 7zipped collection as a single file. That's why I asked you for the ftp option, to save you zipping a collection up.
Then don't come to our place. Seriously, you don't seem to understand that the way we construct the database on a daily basis doesn't allow us to work that way. When - or rather when - there is enough properly sorted material on the site, we'll be able to offer lots more flexibility. In the near future, we'll also offer zipped files with all the dumps uploaded during the month.
Look, I've already said I love your site and really do appreciate the hard work gone into it but you are seeing something that is basically a frontend for an emulator as competition for the site. I know this is true as you would have refused the guy anyway.

What do you know exactly? I already wrote I was in favor of an Atari-related GameBase project but it appears all of you guys only see things on a short-term basis. Read what I wrote again then talk.

BTW, does Mike have any sort of long-term project? I seriously doubt it.
If I want a spot of info I come to your site and not fire up a Gamebase, the gamebase basically provides direct play access to the games while the site is a myriad of treasures that could never ever fully be added to the Gamebase due to time constraints.
Please elaborate. What are these "time constraints" you are referring to anyway? Look, you make it appear like we don't want a GB800 or whatever you want to call it, which is plain wrong. Something escapes me: if you like our site and our material, why are you against the fact somebody teams up with Atarimania and builds a GameBase with our features instead of dumbing down our work? I mean, is it just a matter of people being in a hurry?
I salute both peoples dedication on their projects and wish both parties continued success, why you won't share for a big thank you and site placement on the gamebase is odd, it goes against the whole object of being an Atari fan.

See above...
You do realise there's more of us than just you who have paid our dues over the years, C'mon on, join us just that little step further, we don't bite you know :)
Not sure what it is with that "we". If we really were "bad guys", I would just say NO and leave.

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Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:50 pm

Patch61 wrote:Despite a reasonable amount of intelligence, I fail to understand the reason for this declaration.
And?
I didn't say you claimed copyright. I was pointing out that you seem to think people need permission to use images from your site when you do not have any copyrights at all to said images.
You know very well what I was saying...
I did say (and do believe) that you should have been asked before stuff was used from your site. I said nothing about the VAPI images (the 'images' I was referring to are the scans), which to me, is a creation by you. However, since you bring it up, it is still not your property since it is based on copyrighted property.
I fail to see why you still bring up that notion of copyright when the only things I'm referring to are principles. Is this really asking too much? When we wanted to use the game genres imagined by the GB team and told them they were to be one of the fields for our Atari database, we e-mailed GB64 first. We didn't want to piss off anybody.
Plus, as I said before, you have made this stuff freely available to the public and therefore rendered it public domain (at least as far as your contribution to it).
We aren't exactly on the same wavelength. Maybe I jsut can't get myself clear so let's leave it at that...
By the same token, the original developers spent thousands of hours creating the content you are taking freely. As far as 'trying to do something the right way' goes, who made YOU the final arbiter on what is 'right'? What this guy is doing is 'right' in my book... that is to say, he is making a large collection of classic games easily available to play. He is not encroaching on your site's purpose. He has a different purpose and thus, your way is no more 'right' than his.
Everything has been said by both "parties" on this. Please read what I wrote.
Actually, I believe you told him No. That is not very open at all.
Last time I heard, Mike wasn't Superman or God in person. Stop distorting what I wrote: we are open to people who have a long-term project, which I don't feel applies to Mike. The details are in my previous posts, I'm not going to repeat myself.
Now, I really don't mean to disrespect you or your efforts. In fact I, and many other Atari fans, are greatly appreciative of your efforts to preserve a piece of our history and our fond memories. But I also appreciate the efforts of other people who create GameBase compilations to make it easier for me to check out all the old games.
See my previous posts again. Would you rather have a project for fly-by-nighters built up in a hurry with missing, inaccurate or left out information or would you be concerned by a larger project which would appeal to both the occasional users and collectors with lots of pizzazz and approved by Atarimania?

One last thing: why are people so impatient? Considering how recent Atarimania is compared to GB64 and World of Spectrum (for example), why are people bitching and giving us lessons? At least allow us the right to say what we want about the work we provided (yes, I know "work" is a pedantic word, we broke a million copyright notices, "the" stuff is freely downloadable...).

We ARE doing this for the community and ARE willing to make all this a better project - believe it or not, the idea of having our database integrated in GB-fashion dates back to the beginnings of our site - so just give us time and respect our preservation efforts, it'll make things easier for everybody in the end.

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Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:31 pm

Neo-Rio,
Neo-Rio wrote:Anyway, it just smacks of elitism for the Atariage people to go around thinking that they can restrict access to scans that weren't theirs to begin with. It's a bit rich. Doing this work is a HOBBY for most of us, and the fact that a lot of people enjoy the results of our work is the reward.
Swell... So you absolutely want us to be the evil side?

What the hell does AtariAge have to do with this? Do you mean Atarimania? Did you READ what I wrote?

What do you mean "smacks of elitism"? Doesn't even make sense considering we also want to reach a wider audience. Just because we want to do things in a different way?

BTW, I contributed information for something like 200-250 programs for the GB64 project yet didn't get a single GB point. I really don't care at all but maybe giving points to die-hard C64 users only is "elitist" as well, isn't it? Sure isn't an incentive to dig out the C64 disks I have either, to be honest.

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Paul Irvine
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Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:43 pm

Last post on this topic from me, it's becoming too circular for my time.

Atari Frog, you have created an online resource for Atari fans to go to download from and enjoy yet you are saying that you don't want people to use the material on the site for a database.

He's hardly going to use your entire site for goodness sake.

With every point I've tried to make you have taken the time to tell me that I'm wrong or you don't understand what I'm saying.

As regard downloading collections of files, yes I understand the way you are databasing but I was making the point that it makes a new user to atari perform a complicated and long process..

Ie, your site would be more user friendly IF you did it, whether you bother is up to you.

The time constraints I mentioned refer to the fact that like your database the GB800 is hand coded for each extra item, so every single thing takes time so Mike was hardly going to add every scrap from your site.

What I think people are scratching their heads about is simply WHY?

Why are you so bothered about a few screenshots and the odd map or whatever in a GB800 base. Does it degrade your site, does it hinder your work, does it cause you to lose sleep, does it actually do anything derogatory to you or the site..

Simply you just don't want people to use it as you or whoever took the time to scan x, y or z. I appreciate you could have been asked but have already said you would say no..

Comes across as "it's my ball and I won't let you play with it".

Any how, I wish your site all the best, like all I appreciate the work, I just wish you would slacken your ethics a little.
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Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:07 pm

this post is gonna offend people and for that i'm sorry, but i'm in atarifrog's corner on this, GB800 is quite frankly a mess, sorry but it's true, the majority of the games included in the GB have no release year or publishing company, some of the disk images don't even work properly, there are no accompying screenshots just a single one, how hard is it to take a gameplay shot and title shot using a emu??

the quality of GB64 and GamebaseST is what i think atarifrog is after, and lets face it the 8-bit atari deserves a better gamebase than what its got at the moment, i do appreciate the effort that has been put into gb800, but i can't help but think it could be better

i know what you're thinking "f**king hypocrite" but that's not true, i enjoy making my own gamebases so i know exactly the time and effort that goes into it, but like i said it could and should be better
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Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:23 pm

Paul Irvine wrote: Comes across as "it's my ball and I won't let you play with it".
Exactly.

Whether he's right or wrong about this, well --- nobody is going to care now, because of the attitude we all copped.

Once people "spit their dummy" and delve into personal attacks, people just switch off, and once people switch off, and you can be right, factually and logically correct and everything -- but no-one will bother to listen.

A shame really
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Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:19 pm

SexyWayne wrote:this post is gonna offend people and for that i'm sorry, but i'm in atarifrog's corner on this, GB800 is quite frankly a mess, sorry but it's true, the majority of the games included in the GB have no release year or publishing company, some of the disk images don't even work properly, there are no accompying screenshots just a single one, how hard is it to take a gameplay shot and title shot using a emu??

the quality of GB64 and GamebaseST is what i think atarifrog is after, and lets face it the 8-bit atari deserves a better gamebase than what its got at the moment, i do appreciate the effort that has been put into gb800, but i can't help but think it could be better

i know what you're thinking "f**king hypocrite" but that's not true, i enjoy making my own gamebases so i know exactly the time and effort that goes into it, but like i said it could and should be better
Whoooah...

How many releases of GB800 have there been, do you know how long GB64 was in production before it hit the streets. Even in the latest GB64 there were crocked games..

What I think Mike wanted to do was get a basic 'lump' out and then add to it which he did and now it's 'refining' time.

I salute all the GB makers, it's a darn sight more work than people realise. See how far down the line you can get for entering all the fields out of 4000+ games before you start to HATE it :)

As for what Atari Frog wants, well if he's so keen on a pristine database then allow the images to be used without a moan.
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